SpielByWeb

[chaosbreaker]

I feel that the Tikal auction variant is more fun because it is more strategic. However when you play face-to-face people take forever and more to make a move. Thus a play-by-web would be ideal for this the auction variant. However an open auction for would take lots of turn to complete. Hence my suggestion is:

Auction of the Tikal tiles like provinces in Amun-Re.

The Amun-Re auction is a simultaneous, incresingly incremental auction where, once you are out bid you must bid on another tile.

[RyanMC]

We are going to be doing the auction variant as soon as we finish up with Hacienda and put it into beta. We have looked at a few different ways to handle the auction, and none of them are perfect. I hadn't considered totally altering the auction and making it a bid on each tile type thing ala Amun-Re, we will have to talk about that. Either way, the auction will be put in in some form, and if people want to play it they can.

My personal feelings on the auction are its most beneficial for the 2 player game, and that won't add as much time to the game as it would for a 3 or 4 player auction. We will let the players decide how they want to use it or not.

When Myke and I start looking at a game to put in play by web format, the first thing we look at is number of turns required per player per game. In tikal thats a set number and its a good fit for this format. The auction can add 4-6x the number of turns required very easily in a 4 player game, so it will be interesting to see if it gets used a lot outside of 2 player contests.

Either way, thanks for the suggestion, we will look at that as a possible option.
_________________
---------------
-=RyanMC=-
---------------

[TheCat]

Well, I just signed up for a game and had forgotten that there wasn't an auction. We've been playing for years with the auction "variant" and consider it the "regular" way to play the game.

If auction and no-auction are both available, I'll choose auction every time.

[chaosbreaker]

Let me explain why further I think Amun-Re bid system should be used for Tikal.

In real life aucitions, like ebay, one should be able to bid in increments of cents to out bid someone else. However in a board game such increments, although realistic, is tedious. Many times players bid one more dollar and may take several bids before some is the winner. As an example try playing Power Grid on BSW or face to face. How many bids are made until someone wins a power plant in Power Grid? Thats why Knizia chose to have one simultanous auction of several provinces at preset increasing increments so one cannot just bid one more dollar. Amun-Re bid system forces player to bid on provinces they really want close to what they really want to pay.

In the official Tikal auction variant you have an auction for each and every tile and you can out bid another player by one point. An auction can drag on for many bids. The reason why people don't like to play the auction variant with more than two player only is because it can take forever because you mave four auctions per turn where each player can out bid another player by one point.

Could you at least consider put the Amun-Re bid system as a variant for Tikal. I think it may make Tikal auction variant a playable game for four via play-by-web.

Thanks for listening

[HappyProle]

(I'm the Myke Ryan speaks of. )

I agree with you to a certain extent on the merits of the Amun Re bidding system -- especially for play-by-web games (can you imagine Power Grid in this format? ugh..) -- the triangular numbers certainly lead you to initially bid close to the value you expect to pay in the end. But wouldn't bidding on all of the tiles initially change the game significantly? IIRC, the first high-bidder takes his/her turn before the bidding for the second tile begins. What that person does on his/her turn could certainly influence subsequent auctions.

Unfortunately I don't have much experience to draw on for playing Tikal with the auction variant. It seems like whenever we play it we're teaching it or re-teaching it and therefore stick to the basic rules. I'd love to hear more feedback from Tikal auction vets about how many rounds the auctions typically go.

I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to handle auctions. We could even have two auction variants: one standard and one using the "Amun Re" rules.

--------------------

One other possibility we've talked about implementing for other auction games is a system where each player sets their max bid, then the auction proceeds in turn order automatically (sort of like eBay): when it's your "turn" if your max bid is higher than the previous bid your bid is automatically made. You could make this slightly more complicated by assigning a max bid per opponent, i.e. "if so and so is winning the auction, my max bid is X; if whatshername is winning, my max bid is Y." This would be a little more complicated up front and add a blind bidding element but would mean just one game-hit per auction phase. I think it would work better for fixed-increment auctions (like Princes of Florence).

[RyanMC]

HappyProle beat me to responding. I thought about this overnight. I think it would be hard to do ina pure amun-re style since you are not only bidding on a tile, but on turn order. That would make it difficult to implement.
_________________
---------------
-=RyanMC=-
---------------

[TheCat]

As I said before, we always play auction style. In 3 or 4 player games, many auctions go once around the table, like this:

Player 1: pass
Player 2: 1
Player 3: pass
Player 4: 2
Player 2: pass

Often, by the time there are only two tiles left, it goes like this:

Player 1: pass
Player 2: pass

Sometimes, if there's one really good tile (a 5 temple) and three really bad ones, the first round of the auction might take a bit longer.

However, on the all-important scoring rounds, when a volcano is available for bidding, it will often go around the table several times, with the winner paying as must as 5-6 points.

The advantage of all this is that there is a lot of strategy in denying players tiles, in using turn order to place 'bad' tiles in disadvantageous places for other players, and definitely in being the first to make scoring moves (and thus being in a position to set the minimum on high-level temples -- if I go first, I might score a temple with 2 workers. The next player has to have 3 workers. The next player might not be able to score it at all as they need 4 workers, etc. Turn order is also tremendously important when maneuvering to place temple guards. imho, removing the variable turn order removes a lot of the tension from the game. I have no objections to "draw and play" being a variant, but you will make me very, very happy if you enable the auction.

Thanks! Tikal is one of my favorite games and I'm thrilled to see it here.

[MarkJohnson]

And then there are some of us that never cared for the auction variant in Tikal, anyway, and are pleased as punch it isn't being used yet on SpielByWeb.

[tomlynch]

I am so happy to see Tikal on spielbyweb! It is one of those great games that I never seem to get to play. Personally, I prefer to play with the auction style but am still thrilled to have a chance to play with the standard rules. In my experience, the bidding does not go on for a very long time. Usually people drop out quickly if they bid at all. I can't imagine it adding any more than one or two player actions per tile. That is not much worse than a round of Amun-re, although the bidding would be more frequent. Just my two cents. Thanks for a great site.

Tom

[chaosbreaker]

[chaosbreaker]