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cpsof95
Joined: 31 Mar 06 Posts: 177
Location: Finland
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: Bullying Players |
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Yes, it happens again and again. Players who have intention to try to win the game, start messing around and use all their power to make sure another player doesn't win. And yes, I've been the target very often lately. In one game, one player even openly admitted, his goal wasn't to win the game, but to make sure I don't win.
Especially in Tikal, it happens all the time. In the early game, I have set up a camp in a nice location, and I've moved three workers to a temple of 2 far away from the base camp. What does the bully do? Well, he spends his whole turn to bring his leader and a worker there. I use six AP's to move yet three more workers there, and the bully follows by bringing two workers there. Now we're happily even in that temple, and we're screwed as the other two players have taken the whole map.
In Amun-Re, you see players with no farmers sacrificing like crazy totally messing up the game balance. Auctions make no sense as the actual province values may be whatever this bully likes.
I know there are various styles of playing and different kinds of playing groups. But as we're playing with people we don't know, I think we should be more fair and try to play decently instead of bullying around.
I also know it's very hard to control whether a player is bullying excessively, but I wrote this message to open up a discussion. |
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wotever
Joined: 01 Feb 07 Posts: 2
Location: Arizona, USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is rather sad, but I don't really know how you can stop it since the other person could argue that it is valid play within the rules.
Personally, I play for enjoyment - winning is a bonus. |
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JimF
Joined: 02 Jun 05 Posts: 39
Location: Banstead, Surrey
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Not something I've noticed in my games though I sometimes wonder whether a high win ratio does draw attention to you as someone not to give an easy ride to. But i've never noticed someone completely ignoring their own game just to ensure I lose. Agreed this is bad if this is happenning.
Having said that one thing I'm careful of in games like Wallenstein and Tikal is not to hit the same player too many times as it seems like a natural reaction for that person to want revenge on you, especially when their chance of victory looks to have gone. |
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Golux13
Joined: 14 Jul 05 Posts: 209
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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JimF wrote: | Having said that one thing I'm careful of in games like Wallenstein and Tikal is not to hit the same player too many times as it seems like a natural reaction for that person to want revenge on you, especially when their chance of victory looks to have gone. |
But by the same token, you shouldn't impair your chances by making less-than-optimal moves just to avoid hurting another player's feelings. I suppose you can factor the likelihood that Player X will seek revenge into your "best move" calculation, but as a general rule, you should play for your maximum advantage, and if you wind up hitting the same player multiple times because those are your best moves, so be it. |
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ebots_mind
Joined: 25 Sep 06 Posts: 29
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've also noticed that going on in Tikal. Considering I'm not the most experienced player to begin with, this isn't making the game very fun or much of a learning experience.
Also, one of the last Tikal games I played which ended over a month ago, three of the players were boasting about how they were cheating by altering their scores. Apparently, there is a way to hack in and do that. Maybe that ought to be looked into, as their scores were indeed quite excessively past 100 as opposed to all other Tikal games in which I've taken part. |
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cpsof95
Joined: 31 Mar 06 Posts: 177
Location: Finland
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, collusion can be very beneficial in Tikal.
1) Make an agreement to jointly uncover two temples.
2) Both players move a few workers to the temples.
3) Each scoring round agree to let both players score both temples.
These agreements can be very hard to prove, as tacit collusion may happen without any discussion.
These problems are one of the reasons, why I have started to prefer heads-up and team games. All vs All games just don't work well with players who are well aware of the game dynamics.
Btw, 2v2 Tikal could be quite interesting. |
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cpsof95
Joined: 31 Mar 06 Posts: 177
Location: Finland
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Ok then, in one of my games one player totally ignored scoring round, and spent his whole turn to bring 5 workers to my temple, although he couldn't score it.
I'm not taking my turn in that game, until this is investigated by the staff. Where can I report this game? |
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andrew6261

Joined: 29 May 06 Posts: 39
Location: vancouver, canada
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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cpsof95 wrote: | Ok then, in one of my games one player totally ignored scoring round, and spent his whole turn to bring 5 workers to my temple, although he couldn't score it.
I'm not taking my turn in that game, until this is investigated by the staff. Where can I report this game? |
All I'd caution here is:
I'd played a single game of Wallemstein at a con, before I started playing here.
I've never played Tikal in real life - only here.
I've never played Bus or Hacienda in real life.
Some people learn the games by playing here. I obviously don't know whether it applies in this case, and can see that this could be frustrating if the player concerned has played a lot of Tikal games on Spielbyweb and is just screwing you personally, but my guess is he hasn't? If not, it's frustrating, but it's a single game - it's a downside against the many upsides of playing here.
Refusing to play a turn is not reasonable to the other players or admins who can really do little in this situation. I think you're a conscientious player who can reflect on this...there are lots of people reading this who'll sympathize and sign up to another game if you set one up and post the password in this thread. _________________ pls have > 1 completed sbw tikal game and av turn < 10 hrs |
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drewholmes
Joined: 20 Oct 06 Posts: 1
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: |
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cpsof95 wrote: | Ok then, in one of my games one player totally ignored scoring round, and spent his whole turn to bring 5 workers to my temple, although he couldn't score it.
I'm not taking my turn in that game, until this is investigated by the staff. Where can I report this game? |
As one of the players in the game in question, I can definitely see your point. In this case, sub-optimal play does look a lot like a personal grudge and an effort to specifically keep you from scoring points.
I know there is no collusion on my part (hey, it's just a game!), and I've played against the player in our game who is orange a few times before and never noticed any suspect play. In this case, from my limited resources, it just looks like poor play with an agenda to make life difficult for you.
How about a rematch game (password protected, of course) with the three of us who have over 60 points in this current game? It'll at least give us all something to do while the admins investigate! |
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freduk

Joined: 18 Jan 06 Posts: 433
Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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What exactly are you expecting the admins to do?
They can hardly insist that the player take back his moves (with their help) and move somewhere else. It might be more than a little annoying, but holding the game up will achieve nothing. A little friendly/polite in-game chat might help explain what was going on, but if that's how this player wants to play the game, that's his right.
I suggest you accept the offer of a rematch with the other players, and just let this one take its course. |
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RyanMC SBW Developer

Joined: 13 Sep 05 Posts: 344
Location: Draper, UT USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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I am not going to set a precedence here. We can not investigate poor play. Kingmaking, suboptimal play, strategic decision, the line between each of these is really gray at times. What the other player did is not cheating, holding a game hostage however is not acceptable. You aren't just affecting the player that came after you, you are affecting the other players in the game. I won't stand for collusion, but a suboptimal play in a scoring round is not proof of collusion, it may not even be proof of bad play. I have recieved complaints like this in the past and then at the end of the game that "bad" move ended up helping the "bad" player win the game. I won't police game decisions, if that's what you want (predictable "good" play) find an AI to play against and not a real human. _________________ ---------------
-=RyanMC=-
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ebots_mind
Joined: 25 Sep 06 Posts: 29
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: Sympathy |
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Grow up Andrew.
Cpsof95, good for you for not standing for that kind of b.s.
I'd continue boycotting it, good luck with your outcome! |
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Bkruppa
Joined: 08 Nov 05 Posts: 241
Location: Fremont, Ca, USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Grow up Andrew? Boy in my world people who act calmly and just accept problems in life are the ones who have grown up ...but then again maybe "taking your ball and going home" (i.e. boycotting) is more mature  |
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cpsof95
Joined: 31 Mar 06 Posts: 177
Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the comments, I have taken my turn now.
Probably I wouldn't have brought up this specific case, unless I had just opened this discussion a little earlier. This was a hot topic for me and seeing this kind of action happening was just a bit too much.
I think the spirit of gaming in general is that every player does his best to win the game. If someone doesn't follow this rule, he's playing a different game than the other players. I don't think any gaming group in the world wants to play with someone who just messes up the game and doesn't even try to win.
So I hope to hear some more suggestions from everybody.
P.S. I think a major part of being a grown-up is being aware of the problems and also taking actions to fix them. |
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ebots_mind
Joined: 25 Sep 06 Posts: 29
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Random Things |
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I agree with you Cps, the whole point in being here is to play a game and have fun. The bullying isn't necessary, that's all I'm saying Bkruppa. I accept that that will be inevitable everywhere. But, I think if we ignore it and pretend it isn't happening, we are silently advocating our tolerance for it too. And I couldn't agree with you more, that "part of being grown up is being aware of problems and taking actions to fix them." Well stated.
And by the way Cps, if you're looking for someone who will give you a fair game, shotokanguy is probably the best person to play on this site. The guy lives and breathes by honor codes, so I would trust that he is on his own honor, and that his gaming reflects the same mentality.
Last edited by ebots_mind on Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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