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More meaningful "Games won" number
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Golux13

Joined: 14 Jul 05
Posts: 209

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Amun-Re -- Rollback of game possible?

LVBrian wrote:

Golux13 wrote:

Of course there's disappointment when I don't win. You don't feel that? And yes, I do try to figure out why I didn't win, whether I made obvious mistakes or was simply outplayed, etc. We often conduct post mortems on games. It's not an obsession, more like an after-action report. You don't do that?

Of course we all do that after some games, Golux13. I just don't traditionally see second place doing much more than ruminating over a couple moves that, in hindsight, could have been better. Certainly not feeling the kind of regret that he is a loser that you are implying over and over in all of these posts. If second place out of five starts crying over what-could-have-been in our group, I would hand him a towel.

Depending on the game and the outcome, we might discuss for 5 minutes or 30 minutes, along the lines of "It was a mistake for me to do X, because I should have done Y and frozen you out of doing Z." or "I was all set do A and B, which would have been a swing of 10 points against Joe, and I would have won. But Charlie ended the game a round too early for me to do B." There's no crying and there's no regret over being a loser, though Charlie might get smacked around a bit. (No, just kidding. I'm kind of sorry I mentioned the whole "first loser" thing, which as I think I mentioned is basically just trash-talk in my group.)

LVBrian wrote:

Golux13 wrote:

Montu... Tell me, even though you were justifiably proud of your strong finish, weren't you just a wee bit sorry that you couldn't find a way to squeeze out those last few points and win the game?

I think I can answer for montu. (All apologies, montu, if I am wrong.)

"No."

Maybe you wouldn't have that "Aww, so close!" kind of disappointment, but I bet most people would.

LVBrian wrote:

But maybe in a game of Amun-Re here he would be a wee bit sorry because his 2nd place is only as good as 5th place (in what the other players see and perceive) and it is rather anticlimactic. Which was my point, really, in starting this thread.

Ah, there's the difference between us: You care what other people think of your record here. I just come to play games, and will jump into pretty much any open game. (Too many, in fact. I'm spending way too much time here.) The only time I might pay any attention to someone's W/L record is if they have a high win ratio, in which case I might try to pick up some strategies or play tips from watching them.

(As far as Amun-Re goes, I don't think you can draw any conclusions from a 2nd or 5th place finish, since so much of the game depends on what cards you happen to draw. Someone who gets the right cards can almost always do better and score more than an otherwise better player who gets the wrong cards.)

LVBrian

Joined: 03 Nov 05
Posts: 54

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Amun-Re -- Rollback of game possible?

Golux13 wrote:

You care what other people think of your record here.

Please stop trying to figure out the difference between you and I. Your accuracy so far is terrible.

Golux13 wrote:

(As far as Amun-Re goes, I don't think you can draw any conclusions from a 2nd or 5th place finish, since so much of the game depends on what cards you happen to draw. Someone who gets the right cards can almost always do better and score more than an otherwise better player who gets the wrong cards.)

Then what conclusions can you possibly draw about first place?

Last edited by LVBrian on Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

Montu

Joined: 14 Nov 05
Posts: 36

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Amun-Re -- Rollback of game possible?

LVBrian wrote:

This I agree with. I think at the very least the number of 2nds, then 3rds, etc. should be used to break ties in ranking between players with equal numbers of wins. Surely that is something everyone agrees with?

LVBrian

Joined: 03 Nov 05
Posts: 54

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:

I guess we will just disagree permanently Golux13. Ah well. The moderators and site owners have seen many sides to this so they can decide. The only time I even see ratings is when I hover too long or go to my own profile and they just always strike me as so. . . inexorable and absolute. Anyway, again, cheers to a great site.

Golux13

Joined: 14 Jul 05
Posts: 209

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Amun-Re -- Rollback of game possible?

LVBrian wrote:

Golux13 wrote:

You care what other people think of your record here.

Please stop trying to figure out the difference between you and I. Your accuracy so far is terrible.

This is pretty funny, since you have been drawing conclusions about me and my gaming friends and our motivations since I first posted in this thread. If I got it wrong, then I apologize -- I have been trying to avoid imputing specific motivations to people here -- but what other conclusion should I have drawn from "because his 2nd place is only as good as 5th place (in what the other players see and perceive)"? (My emphasis.)

LVBrian wrote:

Golux13 wrote:

Then what conclusions can you possibly draw about first place?

I try not to draw any conclusions from W/L records anyway, as I think I've said, aside from watching someone with a high W/L ratio to see if I can learn anything.

Why, what conclusions do you draw?

LVBrian

Joined: 03 Nov 05
Posts: 54

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Amun-Re -- Rollback of game possible?

Golux13 wrote:

but what other conclusion should I have drawn from "because his 2nd place is only as good as 5th place (in what the other players see and perceive)"?

Since post # 4 where I stated "Hey I am with you guys, that's why I said low priority. But as a numbers guy and a developer of sorts myself, it ain't a big big change and one that others besides us three might enjoy seeing the fruits of" I have pretty much prioritized what I thought would help everyone enjoy the game system. I am not sure if you will believe this but... I actually don't care that much personally about the rating system changing.

I simply think it would be preferred by the majority. Just like I think the majority of players care about their 2nds versus their 5ths.

Also, in the example above I am talking about all 4 "losing" players thinking about their scores having relative meaning to each other in that single game instance. I am not talking about ratings. "the other players" is everyone else in that game. not everyone else on the site.

Golux13

Joined: 14 Jul 05
Posts: 209

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject:

Fair enough. I misread you.

LVBrian

Joined: 03 Nov 05
Posts: 54

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject:

By the way, Golux, stop beating us mercilessly in "Beginners, but not absolute IV". Though it will be quite poetic if you take 1st and I take 2nd.

Golux13

Joined: 14 Jul 05
Posts: 209

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject:

I think my 1-for-14 record in Amun-Re shows exactly how likely it is that I will beat you mercilessly.

Laurion

Joined: 27 Feb 06
Posts: 42

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject:

Quote:

No I am actually talking about anything but a 2 player game. I also have statisitcal backing for what I am saying. I run an online settlers site. We used to give ladder points for second place. The king making issue was constantly being thrown around because of it. People were giving the game away early, to ensure a second place finish, when they knew a few more turns may cause them to take third. Adding a second place stat doesn't help the game. It makes it worse. Once we removed that incentive, and made everyone play to win or lose, not play for almost winning the competition was much more even, and fair.

I know this is an old thread, but I just found the topic, and I find it interesting. I'd like to point out that the above example is entirely dependent upon a game with a variable length. For a game like Amun-Re, which has a fixed number of turns, it isn't possible to end the game early to guarantee a second place over a third place.

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